Forums > General Discussion
With the recent tragedies
Quantum:
I quote Kujo:
"This means despite the ban on guns people still get murdered just as often here as they do in the states regardless if its done by a gun."
You weren't talking about "violent crimes" there, you were talking about murders. None of the things you quote there are specific to murders. You seem to be both trying to say I am wrong and yet conceding your point, I quote you again:
"the UK overall may have lower homicide rates"
Of course I am my argument isn't valid for this different topic you just decide to insert in to the conversation, but then I was sticking to the topic at hand.
kujo:
--- Quote from: Quantum on October 05, 2006, 10:30:32 pm ---I quote Kujo:
"This means despite the ban on guns people still get murdered just as often here as they do in the states regardless if its done by a gun."
You weren't talking about "violent crimes" there, you were talking about murders. None of the things you quote there are specific to murders. You seem to be both trying to say I am wrong and yet conceding your point, I quote you again:
"the UK overall may have lower homicide rates"
Of course I am my argument isn't valid for this different topic you just decide to insert in to the conversation, but then I was sticking to the topic at hand.
--- End quote ---
Ok fair enough its not specific to murders but murders attribute to violent crime stats, which is why I referenced this in the discussion. I used the word MAY in my last statment because there is nothing to indicate the pattern doesn't include homicides as well only the possibility that it MAY not. Based on popular crime trends a rise in violent crime is mirrored by a rise in homicide. However I'm open minded and if you could demonstrate with a credible source that the homicide rates are lower in London than NYC I MAY have to revise my opinion and I would have to acknowledge that my quotes are not accurate reflections of my main point. I live to learn....
Quantum:
I think NYC and London are bad comparisons for a number of reasons. Lets compare the U.K and the U.S.
Here are some statistics from 1997 and 1999:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
If murder rates mirrors violent crime then these statistics wouldn't be drastically different. Same stats here but with less info: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita#rest
TheNightWatchman:
I remember reading an article about this a few months ago. It brought up an interesting point saying that the US was screwed either way, and compared it to Japan. Japan having a large population the same as the USA had a much much much less rate of murders/injuries through the use of guns. It said that this was probably because guns were always illegal in Japan where in the US they have always been legal. Now the problem is because they ALWAYS have been legal, because if you ban them now, all of the 'good' citizens will give up their guns and then the only people left with them will be the 'bad guys' or 'criminals' who would have used them the same in the first place... lose-lose situation.
kujo:
--- Quote from: Quantum on October 06, 2006, 09:03:15 am ---I think NYC and London are bad comparisons for a number of reasons. Lets compare the U.K and the U.S.
Here are some statistics from 1997 and 1999:
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
If murder rates mirrors violent crime then these statistics wouldn't be drastically different. Same stats here but with less info: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita#rest
--- End quote ---
Both were good reads and while New York and London were just one example that doesn't necessarily reflect the rest of the world I used it in conjunction with the statement that our homicide rates in inner cities are comparable to theirs, it is one example of several, there are many american cities that have more homicides than english ones, I point this out as to me it appears as though the fact there are guns available are not whats making an impact on the homicides. Your sources while useful seem to indicate though above anything else there is no direct corelation between gun ownership and crime. The first shows a number of countries where the homicide rate is higher than the states yet the populous own fewer guns per head than the united states Eg mexico). And while it does illustrate that the overall homicide rate of the UK is indeed lower, there is equally nothing to suggest that guns are the contributing cause. I WILL concede that we have fewer homicides overall but still am not convinced that the gun argument is to blame. Infact your second source has a good point which suggests this is probably not the case:
"Moreover, in recent years the murder rate in England has been going up under still more severe gun control laws, while the murder rate in the United States has been going down as more and more states have allowed private citizens to carry concealed weapons -- and have begun locking up more criminals. "
This leads me to believe that the issue of high homicide is completely separate from gun ownership of the populous. This is once again when taking another look at switzerland as an example (there were a few other within your 1st source). Personally I believe its social conditions that create high homicide rates but that a different subject entirely. In any case let me know what you think..
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version